This is all part of the War on Women.
I am no fan of Nancy Pelosi (and will never forgive her for what she did to rig the primaries for Obama and against Hillary), but I think a lot of what is going on right now is hatred of women. If she were a male Speaker of the House, whatever she has said and done would be deemed political necessity (just think back to all of the past six or seven Speakers of the house).
This is all part of the War on Women.
Many of the same people who hurled disgusting insults at Hillary Clinton hurled the SAME disgusting insults at Sarah Palin, and are going after Nancy Pelosi today as if she were the writer of the torture memos or even the person who ordered the torture.
Furthermore, Pelosi — as contrasted with her rightwing critics — is still asking for a Truth Commission to get to the facts of the torture issue. Her rightwing critics do NOT want any investigation of the torture issue.
Dick Cheney is controlling the debate.
Dick Cheney is winning the debate.
This writer puts it very clearly, please read this: http://www.correntewire.com/defending_nancy_pelosi
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The purpose of the current Pelosi smear is to divert attention away from the more salient issues in the torture debacle. (Notice the Dems aren't helping her out either.) If you can get the public to look away from the pictures and make it appear to be some kind of partisan finger-pointing, they will lose interest and the whole issue can be swept back under the rug.
In this case, I think the rethugs would have gone after any Dem target - they just choose the most visible and coloring with the cultural trend toward hatred/mistrust of women makes her an easier target.
Independently adrift
you've opened my eyes and Sarah at Corrente states it well.
But I still can't stand Pelosi.
Civil Discourse - ERA - A Mother President - Women's Rights - Primary Reform
this stinks. But I think Pelosi gave them the gun with which they're about to shoot her.
It's going to be a while before I understand all I know about this one.
re: "I think Pelosi gave them the gun"
As I said, I am no fan of Pelosi, but I have read that former Senator Graham (from Florida) and current Senator Jay Rockefeller were at the same meeting (with one another) and do not agree on what they heard. I think it is very easy -- unless a big deal is made of something -- for different people to hear different things at any meeting, just as different witnesses will see different things at an auto accident scene.
That press conference she had was a train wreck. In my experience, innocent people just don't act like that.
The focus should be on the torture memo writers and on the people who ordered the torture.
We should not let Dick Cheney distract us like this.
Nancy Pelosi is a MINOR character in this play.
She was a player, who sought stardom. It backfired. (As Kim pointed out, her conference made her look like she was hiding something.)
Pelosi has said the intelligence community lied to her, but thus far evidence does not back her charge. As a result, the story will continue to spiral out of control and dominate much of the news for most of the week.
I think it is important to bear in mind that at the time of the CIA briefings in 2002 and 2003, Nancy Pelosi was a minority (Democratic) member of the House committee.
Why is NO one asking WHO the majority (Republican) members were who were being briefed by the CIA?
Aren’t they at least as guilty as Pelosi, who is being dammed by right-wingers at the same time those right-wingers are silent about the Republicans who were briefed?
Pelosi didn't write the memos and Pelosi didn't order the torture.
Yoo and Bybee wrote the memos, and Cheney ordered the troture
I agree with you creeper.
Speaker P is this year's model of "Hillary Whipping Girl" or "Sarah P Whipping Girl." Now that they can't touch the Secretary, the sharks smell the blood of another "girl" in power and they are licking their chops to ruin her. Who will be next? They always have to have some her to burn at the stake, you know. Who will rid us of these WOMEN? Old Newt wants to take a run at it. After all, he does have plenty of experience. :sick:
On behalf of all women everywhere, I'm sticking with the Speaker.
"Right wing sledge hammers never, ever help us." Pacific John
Nancy is a tough, brilliant woman. A tough, brilliant man in her position simply would not be treated with such "mistrust" of her ability to handle national security issues. She's being railroaded.
to "mistrust" of her ability to handle national security issues. In fact, I don't see anyone coming at it from that angle. The hue and cry is about Pelosi's constantly shifting story.
What I do see is a willingness to excuse one of the worst performances I've seen by a politician in months because she is female. I have never advocated that women be given one whit of slack because of their gender.
Pelosi didn't learn the lesson any better than Bill Clinton...when you're already in a hole, stop digging.
That it was Bybee and Yoo who wrote the memos to enable torture and Dick Cheney who ordered the torture.
Do you care to dump at all on the Republicans who were the Majority party in Congress when all of these CIA briefings were going on -- and torture was ignored, if not applauded by the Republicans?
in the last eight years, the pile is a mile high. I came here as a "trusted user" from dKos...about as far left as one can go. Go read my diaries there, including the one I wrote pleading for George Bush's impeachment. How am I supposed to get upset at Republicans whose actions went along with their words from the get-go? They may be murdering bastards but they're upfront about it.
What I understand with regard to the torture issue is that Pelosi claimed to oppose it, did not when she could have and seems to be lying about the knowledge she had. I also understand that accusing the CIA point-blank of lying does not prove in any way that SHE is telling the truth.
The way to stop torture is not to elect more Democrats. The way to stop torture is to speak out against it at every opportunity, loudly and long. This is one of the most powerful women in the country and yet she did and said nothing of substance to stop the torture.
It occurs to me that if Pelosi had spoken out against the Yoo and Bybee torture memos in the first place she would not be in the mess she finds herself today. By her very silence she built the corral they're herding her into.
Yes, let's throw the Republicans responsible in jail. But let's not give a pass to weak-kneed Democrats who didn't then and don't now have the guts to stand up for the rest of us. At the rate they're giving away our civil liberties it won't be long before it's Americans on the receiving end of the waterboarding.
Maybe then you'll blame Pelosi.
that the focus is on Pelosi instead of on the writers of the torture memos and the people who ordered the torture?
Pelosi is not the face of torture; Cheney is.
So, why are you helping Cheney take the spotlight OFF him by turning Nancy Pelosi into the main villain?
Her pres conference sucked.
in the whole big scheme of things. A player that had the power to investigate the things Bush/Cheney did while they were still in office. And she quickly took that off the table.
She also was in a position, as Speaker and a woman to speak out against the misogyny aimed at other female politicians and she did nothing. If anything she added fuel to the flames.
Now she is getting battered and her own party isn't rushing to defend her. The president she schemed and lied to get into office isn't defending her. She is being hung out to dry IMHO.
And I don't care. It's time that women in power learn that if they don't stand together they will surely go down alone.
She didn't need to support Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin. All she had to do was defend them against the lies and misogyny. But she didn't.
Don't look to me to care what happens to her now. She made her bed. And Karma is an ugly thing.
A Dishonest/Biased Media Is A Crime Against Democracy!
I'm not cutting Pelosi one inch of slack because she is female. I don't give a damn what's between her legs. I care about honest, open, responsive government. Show me where Pelosi has provided that.
Of all the people in Washington who were in a position to speak out in outrage about torture, how come it is Pelosi who is getting battered the most?
Why isn't everyone jumping on all the other people (mostly men) who were briefed by the CIA or who suspected torture was going on?
Do you seriously think Nancy Pelosi was the only person who was in a position to speak out against torture (assuming she even fully knew it was going on)?
What about Jay Rockefeller?
What about Colin Powell?
What about everyone at the CIA who knew or who should have known?
And how in heck is Leon Panetta credible on what the CIA did or didn't tell the Pelosi or the others in Congress? Panetta was NOT in the room at those briefings? All Panetta knows is what the CIA boys are telling him now.
I am not here to defend Pelosi; my point is that Dick Cheney is using this brouhaha to DISTRACT attention from himself.
Exactly! But I think we know the answer to that one.
"Right wing sledge hammers never, ever help us." Pacific John
But excusing Pelosi's behavior by citing others' is illogical.
Yes, I'm every bit as pissed at Rockefeller, Powell and the rest of the weaklings who went along. They deserve even worse than is being dealt to Pelosi.
But she doesn't get a pass because of them.
"Rockefeller, Powell and the rest of the weaklings who went along. They deserve even worse than is being dealt to Pelosi."
Republicans is Nancy Pelosi.
Truth Commission, but the Republicans (especially Cheney) are against it.
Pelosi wants all the facts to come out -- her detractors do not.
Dick Cheney is no longer the
VicePresident of the United States. Who cares what he wants? Nancy Pelosi is the Speaker of the House...arguably the most powerful woman in the country with the possible exception of Hillary...and she has the closest thing there is to a bulletproof majority. Pelosi could be dragging these murderous thugs in front of one committee after another. But the minute things got hot, suddenly it seems to be off the table.There's not one damn bit of leadership exhibited by Nancy Pelosi...only the politician's relentless effort to protect herself.
the president of the United States is against any hearings or investigations, and he is the leader of your party, the Democratic party
to question her judgment. She supported this jerk from the get-go, ignoring all the evidence that he was a horrible choice.
rent, all we're getting is excuses...from both parties. I don't want excuses. I want these people to get off their butts and do the job they were elected to do.
And that includes Nancy Pelosi.
You're right on the money Marge. Pelosi hasn't done a darn thing that she could have done or that we expected her to. Pelosi sold her soul to "the devil", so to speak (Obama). When you do that, you really can't expect the devil to come to your aid when you are in trouble, now, can you?
Pelosi admitted that she knew of waterboarding by 2003 but felt like she couldn't do anything about it unless the Dems took control of Congress. Funny, I don't remember her ever speaking up about it, until all this came out in the press. This is why I don't trust anything she says.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15cong.html?ref=us
Marcy Wheeler has written an article, in Salon, on the "TORTURE 13," naming the 13 Americans MOST responsible for authorizing torture, justifying torture and covering it up.
Nowhere in the article does Wheeler mention Nancy Pelosi, so WHY is Pelosi the one a few here are blaming the most while remaining silent about the main perpetrators?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/18/torture/
Marcy Wheeler went into the tank for Obama, too. She's a Democrat first and a thinking woman second. That's a shame, because when she IS thinking there's nobody better.
and Pelosi isn't even on the list.
but, the torture thugs are.
Pelosi is on mine.
rent, I know she wasn't responsible for any of the memos. I know the vast majority of the blame devolves upon Republicans. But I can not and will not give her a pass simply because she is a woman. Wrong is wrong, regardless of which restroom you use.
I celebrated Pelosi's selection as Speaker as much as anyone in the country. Then I sat back and waited for her to show us what she's made of.
I'm afraid she has.
"It's time that women in power learn that if they don't stand together they will surely go down alone." Which is exactly why I'm firmly in Pelosi's corner, regardless of what my personal opinion of a particular set of circumstances might be. Heck, I sure as hell didn't like Palin's politics one iota, but I also wasn't going to stand by silently or join in the pile-on of another woman. I sickeningly witnessed too many so-called "feminists" engage in that self-defeating behavior.
Now is not the time for me to do a "nah nah, nah nah nah" to Pelosi because she didn't support Clinton. Any time any woman is treated like this (until we have parity in power), it is an attack on me and you and our daughters and all women. What's next? Salem Trials redux?
"Right wing sledge hammers never, ever help us." Pacific John
Pelosi herself did not defend Clinton against the misogyny of the campaign. Not one word of condemnation for the snide insults from Obama. Worse, crickets on the truly offensive stuff...nutcrackers, t-shirts, posters. Why should we support her now? If she couldn't be bothered to "stand together" then, she is not worthy of my support now.
Let me be clear here. It's unreasonable to expect Pelosi to endorse Clinton simply because they are both women. It is NOT unreasonable to expect the Speaker of the House to stand up for civility. Pelosi made her deal with the devil. She's going to have to live with it.
how Democrats went after Speaker Newt and then knocked out the guy after him, then spent hours ragging on Denny H.? Surely not because they were women!
We're talking politics and Speaker of the House here. Pelosi is not a fav of mine but she is Speaker, she has been making decisions and policy and she will be subjected to harsh criticism.
If we really mean it when we claim that women
areshould be treated equally to men because they are just as capable, then it is folly for us to give her a pass here and call the criticism misogyny.There is onehellofa difference between disapproval of her actions in any instance and attacking her with demeaning gender references. I'm watching to see how she gets out of this. Hopefully she'll "take it like a man" [sorry, but we have no female saying that conveys my meaning] and not wiggle free by blaming others.
This is about NOT letting Cheney change the TORTURE focus from him and onto Pelosi.
You don't care for Pelosi.
I don't care for Pelosi.
But Cheney is the one who ordered the torture.
Please, stop acting in ways that please him.
Please keep the torture focus on him.
This is a rightwing effort to make torture the Democrats' problem; why in god's name would you want to help them?
Why would you want to let Cheney get away with this?
I read this just now and felt it belonged in this discussion.
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Some time back I read an article explaining the reason the dems have trouble with power is they let the repubs control the conversation. Apologies to whoever wrote that article, I cant remember, but I do remember my thinking at the time how much sense that made. And here we are trapped in a time-warp watching it happen again. How tiresome.
Shall I bother pointing out Pelosi was one of the FEW who loudly spoke out against Bush’s attack on Iraq, who voted AGAINST his aggressive and pointless war? Shall I point out Pelosi repeatedly tried to push through legislation demanding a time-line for withdrawal from Iraq, only to have every effort fought, blocked or vetoed by a repub controlled Senate and a hell-bent to destruction repub pres? Shall I even bother?
Of course not. Selective memory is the illness. Bashing is the game. Two steps forward and three steps back are the rules. We should all be proud at how effectively we play the game. How well deserved is our prize. Because if we win following those rules, we always lose. In fact eventually we find, we cant even remember exactly what we played for. What was the point anyway? What is the point?
So once again we find ourselves fighting to prove our point, whatever that is. And while the crimes of the Bush administration go unpunished, we fail to notice how effectively Cheney, the media and all those “me too” repubs have changed the subject. How completely they now control the conversation.
Frankly my dears, I don’t give a damn what Pelosi knew or didn’t know. I care a great deal more that through the boring repetition of what most of us already know ... the GOP apologists have managed to spin Bush into some kind of innocent observer, and that’s the real political goal in all of this insanity. If the repubs can manage to make us forget the Bush guilt and horror, then amazingly convince us he like us, was a victim, then suddenly they will gain credibility where they actually have none! Does anyone out there really believe the repubs care one iota about who knew what when? Well if you do, obviously you’re not paying attention! You are ripe for the sound-bite. Ready to re-swallow the control and not in any way deserving of the chance to get rid of it, once and for all!
So you will watch the inevitable outcome of seeing the repubs regain control of the conversation. Jumping in at every opportunity to amplify their insanity, and wonder why “politics” are corrupt and nothing ever changes. Pick a number, get in line and follow the repubs over the cliff ... again ...
------------------------------------
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20090516_the_pelosi_puzzle1/
...or didn’t know." Sums it up perfectly for me. What I'm interested in here is the future of women in American political power. It ceased to be about the individual, Nancy Pelosi, before the contrived hubbub even started. There is no level playing field (yet), and it's time we started to act like we know that or there never will be.
"Right wing sledge hammers never, ever help us." Pacific John
might just be the way to go. Why wait until we have a parity in power? Why not just go after it?
And one way NOT to go after it is to cry like little girls when a woman gets a political thumping. That is just the way they say those "emotional women are suppose to act - that's why they shouldn't hold office" - and we would all be confirming that gender lie and smear. Pelosi ran for the office and has to take her lumps.
Am I the only one who remembers the great example in courage and attitude of Hillary Clinton? She went after an office and took lumps that she certainly did not deserve. And many women blogged and wrote letters and phoned decrying the horrible way she was being treated - NOT BY REPUBLICANS BUT BY PEOPLE IN HER OWN PARTY!
She knew she had our support but she also knew how politics work. Someone mentioned the word "fair". Ain't no such thing in life or politics. She didn't blubber. She held her head up and fought like a person - like what we believe women ARE.
I do not see any opinions in this thread that suggest -in your words - "joining in a pile-on". Rather, they are waiting for her to "act like a man" instead of like a little girl with all the emotion and bad character our culture has assigned to females.
"The White House quietly sought to get the ball rolling on overhauling Social Security earlier this year, but it either abandoned or significantly downgraded the process under pressure from Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and outside liberal interest groups, according to sources familiar with the stalled effort."
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/54_132/rosegarden/34990-1.html
Why no finger-pointing at Graham and Rockefeller, who were also privy to the information Pelosi was? We can take a few guesses ... what makes Pelosi different from Graham and Rockefeller...which of these things is not like the other hmmm
and as much as I loathe her for her attacks on Hillary, I do still like her humor.
Civil Discourse - ERA - A Mother President - Women's Rights - Primary Reform
Here's the money quote:
"the question of what Pelosi knew or didn’t, or when she did or didn’t know, is IRRELEVANT to how W. and Cheney broke the law and authorized torture."
Let's NOT let Dick Cheney control the debate.
Let's not give Cheney this power.
We have a wuss as president, and that is allowing Cheney to grab more power to control the debate than he should have.
and thanks again for setting me straight
Civil Discourse - ERA - A Mother President - Women's Rights - Primary Reform
I disagree with one thing:
Obama is not a wuss. He is a sociopath. Whatever it is, if it doesn't relate to his acquring and keeping power, he dismisses it as "not a priority." You know, like the Freedom of Choice Act, which he pledged to sign "the very first thing" upon being elected. His electoral calculus shows that he can afford to throw the left under the bus, because in 2012, no Democrat will be allowed to primary him. So, he is figuring that the Repubs will run a radical wingnut and the left will have nowhere else to go.
Sorry I'm so depressing today. This is why I don't write much about Obama. I really can't stand how right I was about him. I would have loved to be wrong...just LOVED IT.
I'm so tired of the patriarchy and their puppet Presidents f*cking up this country.
Maybe wuss wasn't the best word to describe what I think of Obama.
Maybe this is better: Obama has NO moral fiber, NO character and is so frightened of being defined by the extremist right in the person of Dick Cheney that he (Obama) does everything to avoid Cheney's barbs and criticisms and, voila, ends up being controlled by Cheney.
I just used "wuss" as shorthand for the longer description.
(BTW, thanks for the nice words.)
a wuss (his need to be liked by his adversaries trumps his principles ... OK he doesn't have any principles) AND a sociopath (see: wuss.)
Civil Discourse - ERA - A Mother President - Women's Rights - Primary Reform
--from The New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/16/us/politics/16cong.html
- - -
Bob Graham, a former Democratic senator from Florida, who as the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee underwent a briefing similar to Ms. Pelosi's about three weeks after hers, sides with the speaker. He said he recalled a "bland" session.
"I do not have any recollection that day of there being a discussion of something that would have been as neon as waterboarding or other torture techniques," Mr. Graham said.
He said his confidence in the C.I.A.'s account of the briefings had also been shaken by what he said was an incorrect assertion by the agency that he had been briefed on four dates. Mr. Graham, who famously keeps a detailed record of his daily activities, checked and determined that the agency was wrong about three dates and that he had attended only one session before leaving the Intelligence Committee.
"This is just a small chapter of a long, long book of C.I.A. inaccuracies, particularly in the early part of this decade," he said.
You ask good questions, Rent!
"Right wing sledge hammers never, ever help us." Pacific John
And that most definately includes Colin Powell who is now the "new" and improved Hero of the left. Forgotten is his horrendous lies to the UN. He supports Obama so he's back in the good graces of Democrats.
I don't want to see any of them get off the hook. And that means any of the women who were a part of it. Nancy Pelosi is Speaker of the House. As such she is in the front lines and will get stomped flat if she isn't careful. I do not see this as a war on a woman so much as a war on a liberal who is in the Majority and is Speaker of the House.
I remember how Democrats jumped all over Denny Hastert all the time. And he deserved every bit of it. The fact is that it goes with the territory.
I don't know if Nancy Pelosi lied or not. She's a politician and a successful one so I suspect that she is. The fact is that she has mishandled this problem and it's biting her in the ass.
I just don't see Pelosi being treated the same way Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin were treated. If women want to be in positions of power then they have to be able to take the heat. Clinton and Palin did. That means when the piling on begins you have to take the heat or get out of the kitchen.
That's just the way that I happen to see it.
A Dishonest/Biased Media Is A Crime Against Democracy!